Chats/Faction and Apostate Status
Discord chat, #general, April 6, 2018, 10:05 PM GMT
[2:05 PM] merek: Can you explain why some people were demoted even though they haven't even been in game for a while?
[2:05 PM] Apophis: is speaking through a speaker on a pole
[2:06 PM] Apophis: Ok, I will explain this mechanic, because it's critical
[2:06 PM] Apophis: Players start at zero faction 'points'
[2:06 PM] Apophis: Every time they do anything positive for the faction, they are given a message that they have done something favored by the faction.
[2:06 PM] Apophis: That means they are given positive 'points'.
[2:07 PM] Apophis: Once they hit a threshold, they are eligible for promotion, and their bar turns green.
[2:07 PM] Apophis: Once they are promoted, their points are reset to zero.
[2:08 PM] Apophis: If you sit on your butt and do nothing - not a single donation or point or anything - for a full week, you are at risk of demotion. This is ONLY true if you are not an Initiate.
[2:09 PM] Apophis: The Faction leaders expect that people who are promoted to a position of leadership should continue to assist the faction in some way.
[2:09 PM] Apophis: Points are only reset if you are promoted.
[2:10 PM] Apophis: You are only demoted if you have zero points (Associate-Patriarch) or less than zero (Initiate-Patriarch).
[2:10 PM] Apophis: Negative points are not reset.
[2:10 PM] Apophis: You must climb out of that hole with good deeds.
[2:11 PM] Apophis: Otherwise, you will continue to be demoted until you hit Apostate.
[2:11 PM] Apophis: Apostate means nothing right now.
[2:11 PM] Apophis: However, the following things are moving with regards to Apostate:
[2:12 PM] Apophis: 1) We are adding the ability for Elders to ban Apostates without using one of their eight bans. We're still discussing how to balance it. We're looking at giving Apostates a grace week to get out of their hole before allowing Elders to freely ban them.
[2:13 PM] Apophis: 2) Laws that affect the rights of Apostates are fair game. The Faction leaders will Faction Veto any law that restricts Initiates, but they will freely allow any law that restricts Apostates.
[2:13 PM] Apophis: You are not an Initiate by choice. You are an Apostate by choice.
[2:14 PM] Apophis: You clicked through a yes/no that specifically asked you if you were sure that you wanted to perform an action that was contrary to the desires of your Faction leaders.
[2:14 PM] Apophis: You reap those rewards.
[2:14 PM] Lazybum: could we set up a tax, and put the tax on per Faction rating?
[2:14 PM] Apophis: There is already a plan to add that framework to the game - no law needed.
[2:15 PM] Apophis: But you wouldn't be able to tax Initiates.
[2:15 PM] Apophis: We are also looking at adding something to the game that you can decline promotions.
[2:15 PM] Lazybum: we issue animal food stamps.. come pick up your alloted grass and onions
[2:16 PM] Cegaiel: Government cheese
[2:18 PM] merek: Thanks for the explanation @Apophis . That makes it easier to understand what's going on.
[2:18 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): That clears up a lot, thank you.
[2:19 PM] Apophis: I hope this helps. I know not everyone will be happy with it, but I think the mechanic is a pretty good one so far. Obviously, we are iterating on it and trying to improve upon it.
[2:19 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Okay, so we were told we could force our faction leaders into a faction merger. Is that still true.
[2:19 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): I still think the faction system is deeply flawed, but this at least eases concerns about people being cut off from the game for not buying into that mechanic.
[2:19 PM] Cegaiel: Where do you see that green/red faction bar again? I know I've seen it before, but can't locate it. Is it a self click menu, or you click on the building in the main city? Progress?
[2:19 PM] Apophis: A faction merger?
[2:20 PM] Apophis: I missed talk about faction mergers
[2:20 PM] Apophis: So that's up to Malard
[2:20 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Malard mentioned it in the post faction release convo.
[2:20 PM] Manon: @Cegaiel it's at the great hall or a chancery
[2:20 PM] Apophis: @JohnDopp (Spatulus) I am open to ideas on how to improve it that don't involve 'this system sucks and should be removed'
[2:21 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Well I have had one item because i said so vetoed. I want to know what we can do to mitigate things.
[2:21 PM] Apophis: What item did you try?
[2:21 PM] Apophis: We can discuss why it was vetoed.
[2:22 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Allowing citizens of other factions use of our unis
[2:22 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): First and foremost, I think that if the intent of the faction system is to "stop the tech tree rush", it's failing miserably on that count. Kush (and in particular, one guild) are on their way to an insurmountable lead in tech. I'd like to see tech costs increase proportional to how far ahead that faction is.
[2:22 PM] Apophis: So that was given a Faction Veto, as the leaders of the Factions don't want to give away information that the Faction researched.
[2:23 PM] Apophis: We are working on some catch up mechanisms, but it's not really fair to penalized one faction for researching ahead.
[2:23 PM] Apophis: One thing we have instituted is a 7-day timer on all new techs.
[2:24 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): That's painful, but I like it. I'm a masochist.
[2:24 PM] Apophis: We are shortening the timer for factions who are second and third place as a catchup mechanism.
[2:25 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): That's a big step in the right direction. There's a lot of angst about raeli ovens right now, and how the faction to unlock them first will have a huge advantage in snapping up valuable real estate.
[2:25 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): I don't think you guys have even the slightest clue how utterly infuriating this is. I promised an open mind because we were told we could use laws to make it what we wished. That appears to be false.
[2:25 PM] Apophis: We're looking at other catch up mechanisms that are disliked by all factions equally as a matter of equality.
[2:25 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): applauds.
[2:26 PM] LuluDivine: So, I should pretend to dislike things, so that you'll use them?
[2:26 PM] Apophis: @Zascha (Lukeera) That law undermines the entire faction system. There's little difference between that law and a law that says 'We don't want to do the faction thing'.
[2:27 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Sure there is. Hyksos gets free help. Taking our controlled regions loses its appeal. Seems like a perfectly legit choice.
[2:27 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): In exchange we face stiffer competition for new things.
[2:28 PM] Apophis: You have the most people in your faction. I'm not sure why you face that much competition.
[2:28 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Not your precise vision is not the same as wanting the whole system gone.
[2:29 PM] Apophis: Ok, let's say that we allowed you to teach everyone from your universities.
[2:29 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): If the MW can do their tests at our unis we broaden our test competition pool.
[2:30 PM] Apophis: But tests are generally Egypt wide as it is.
[2:30 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): It was never meant entirely altruistically.
[2:30 PM] Apophis: Nothing ever is. I wouldn't expect it to be.
[2:30 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): You have to have techs to do them.
[2:31 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Can't show beetles without Ento for instance.
[2:31 PM] Apophis: So the idea was to open your universities so that not only can everyone learn from them, but also everyone can donate to them.
[2:31 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Yes.
[2:31 PM] Apophis: Thereby enlarging your donation pool to all of Egypt.
[2:31 PM] Apophis: Hmm.
[2:31 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): And why take Pwenet when you canget your seed anyway. My remote home stays in faction.
[2:31 PM] Apophis: I'll think about it.
[2:32 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Malard already because i said so cetoed it.
[2:32 PM] Apophis: I am trying to look at the faction system through a lens of 'What would the faction leaders want'?
[2:32 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Vetoed
[2:32 PM] Apophis: I understand.
[2:32 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Sorry using phone while doing glas
[2:32 PM] Iratia: It would be sorta kinda cool if there were demotions for cause and demotions due to attrition or something:D
[2:33 PM] Apophis: Well, they're all in the same bucket right now
[2:33 PM] Apophis: We could probably split them out though
[2:33 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): So really what I want is a detailed explanation of what we can and cannot legislate.
[2:33 PM] Apophis: Alright. We are actually working on that - we're working on constitutions for each of the factions.
[2:34 PM] Wimsan: Nada Sums it up for lukeera
[2:34 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Because wasting my time for because i said so made me angry :stuck_out_tongue:
[2:34 PM] Apophis: That's really understandable, honestly.
[2:34 PM] Apophis: And I'm sorry that we (as the devs) did that to you. 🥇1
[2:34 PM] Apophis: We're dealing with some growing pains, as it were.
[2:35 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): S'alright. I appreciate any communication on stuff.
[2:35 PM] Apophis: I am really trying to improve communication. Malard is too - he's lightyears better than Teppy, for instance.
[2:36 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): I think, though, that trying to control the direction too tightly may result in not so good things.
[2:37 PM] Apophis: Yeah. But we want to preserve some of the ideas of the system. We want a framework with which to present our ideas. I honestly do understand, though - we haven't established ground rules. Once we can sit down and do that, it should clear the air somewhat.
[2:38 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): I can play any game if I have the rules.
[2:38 PM] Apophis: It's no different than running a D&D game, which I've done off and on for almost 30 years. You create a plot, and provide the framework and the hooks, and the players ignore that stuff and do what they want - inside the framework. We have failed to establish the walls of our sandbox, and we need to do better.
[2:40 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Love the analogy and I am perfectly happy to trundle along waiting for the rules as long as there is a genuine promise that they are forthcoming.
[2:41 PM] Zascha (Lukeera): Also, incoming experiments with apostacy!
[2:41 PM] Apophis: Excellent. :smiley:
[2:41 PM] Apophis: I am out for now, back late tonight.
[2:41 PM] Apophis: Don't burn down too much of the game while I'm gone. :smiley:
[2:42 PM] Fixxxer: We have a Fire Dept, don't worry
[2:42 PM] Fixxxer: i got it covered
[2:42 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): Thank you, Apophis! The dialogue is appreciated.
[2:43 PM] Kasiya: @JohnDopp (Spatulus) Hey! Some of us resemble that remark! While one guild is contributing way more than their fair share - the rest of Kush has been insanely proactive about research donations. In a couple of cases, we've had the materials ready before 'a certain guild' did. Everything down here is a team effort
[2:44 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): Unfortunately, that "team effort" runs roughshod over the rest of Egypt, and makes it more difficult for other factions to play at their own pace.
[2:44 PM] Feyth: Honestly do you really think coding all th negatives and not the positives was a great move?
[2:44 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): It's one of the reasons I dislike the faction system. In past tellings, those efforts always benefited the whole
[2:44 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): Now, it's more of a zero sum game.
[2:47 PM] Feyth: yeah no it isn't
[2:47 PM] Maata: How do you improve communication if important information is not put IN the game. This is getting very annoying to me. A lot of people do not have discord and others have it but do not want to spend 6 hours a day trying to follow it. Demotions are put in the game but the explanation is put here.
[2:47 PM] Feyth: az ero sum game means no gain no negatives
[2:47 PM] Feyth: its stays static
[2:48 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): Point taken
[2:48 PM] atom: maata is right, discord is really useful, but some info should be on wiki and in game
[2:48 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): Let me rephrase: advancements of one faction come at a cost to the others
[2:49 PM] Skyfeather: We could have a bot that streams chat from this channel into game
[2:49 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): Rosalyn standing guard at the Suez tribute post with hundreds of sheet glass that we couldn't match hurt us, not just in the wasted materials, but in the thousands of mats our research costs increased by.
[2:50 PM] JohnDopp (Spatulus): I agree, this is valuable information that should be more easily available. Any reason why we can't post it to the wiki after the fact, at least?
[2:51 PM] Fixxxer: aint no reason why someone cant post it to wiki
[2:51 PM] Apophis: Please post it wherever you want.