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User:Tehm/yeast guide

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Revision as of 09:35, 19 December 2019 by Tehm (talk | contribs)
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Big thanks to Ashen and Somebob for walking me through the process for identifying Yeast (a Microbe) stats:

Isolating Microbes/Yeasts

Ashen: [00m]...from the beginning of a tale when nothing's known ("you" here being a generic "you"): first you run yeast tests at locations to find places where yeasts enter [the beer kit] first. then you experiment with sealing times with those yeast tests at that location to get just the yeast. then you try brewing beers with lots of ingredients to get characteristics of the yeast, like how much alcohol it can produce, its max flavors, etc. some additional tests may be needed to find some minimums too. after that, you can start to try to brew a beer with specific properties.
...
tehm: [10m] I just got kettle kits.  tried yeast test at a handful of locations and found 3 where yeast is first if not also 2-4th as well.
Somebob: [10m] okay so you probably want to isolate the entry times of those yeasts
tehm: [10m] now I want to do something with that info.  I did the 100 med malt at 120, honey at 60 on one
Somebob: [10m] cause if you don't know when to seal, you're gonna get a mess
tehm: [10m] well if I seal at 1600 I just get 1 yeast
Somebob: [10m] OK. So that's a yeast isolated. cool!

The Stat Discovery Process

Somebob: [09m] Is that yeast characterized yet?
Somebob [09m] attempts to pull up current beer calc sheet

[[1]]
T9 Beer Calculator (Blank) Google Sheet is a blanked (for T9) copy of Ashen's version of the calculator from T9. Make a copy for yourself so you don't run into conflicts with other users trying to leverage the sheet.

tehm: [08m] [I've found a spot with] yeasts 11 and 3 [first]
Ashen: [07m] so [looking on the wiki at [Yeast] and on the Yeast tab of the T9 Beer Calculator Google Sheet] 11 is mostly characterized and 3 is totally uncharacterized. do you wanna brew a beer with yeast 11 or figure out yeast 3?
tehm: [06m] uh, let's go with characterize cuz maybe that'll help me understand better
Ashen: [06m] (assuming those are separate locations, yeah?)
tehm: [06m] yep
Ashen: [03m] ok! then you want to try brewing a few beers. down at the bottom of the microbes page there are a couple suggested procedures. personally i've been doing what i was taught, which was one with 100 light malt, one with 100 light wheat, one with a nutso (e.g. 500, but that i think is overkill) honey. three different kettles, ingredients in at the very beginning. best to click at the "begin" button quickly to get stuff in at the start. like click it twice if you're gonna add one ingredient.
Ashen: [03m] but keep in mind that there's a quantity limit so if you're doing 500 honey i think it takes 3 clicks (begin, ingredient, ingredient) to add the honey in two plops (300 and 200 i think?)
Somebob: [02m] oh right what determines the add time? When you call up the quantity box, or when you submit that box
Ashen: [02m] when you call it up, i've been told
  **Counterpoint: Per Solaris, it is when you actually add the ingredient**
Ashen: [02m] that's why you click quickly
Somebob: [02m] oh cool. ok. 
...
Ashen: [00m] anyway, so... whether you use the #'s i suggest, or you do what the microbes page suggests, plug those numbers into the [Calculator tab of the Beer Calculator] spreadsheet. it'll tell you how much glucose/maltose/etc. your ingredients amount to. and you can use the yeast helper [tab] or some manual maths and visual comparison to analyze the reports you get to figure out max values for things.

Ashen: [03m] and we can help you with that when you get to that stage.
Ashen: [01m] i might switch to trying the method the microbes page suggests 'cause it might use less ingredients and kettles and time.
tehm: [00m] so plug the #s you mean B2-C23 on Calculator tab?
Ashen: [00m] yes

tehm: [06m] but what result am I actually putting in?  B2-C23 just lets it calculate some stuff.  where does anything else I did matter?
Ashen: [05m] the yeast helper page is only thing i know of where you would "enter data" for your results. all the analysis i've done has been done manually. i just copy and paste the report you get when you take the beer into a text file.
tehm: [04m] yeah I put it in helper, helper doesn't put the data anywhere, so it's worthless
Ashen: [04m] once you -do- have yeast characteristics, you can put those on the Yeasts page, to help you calculate real beer recipes.

The Calculator tab is for 2 things

  1. If the Yeast has been ID'd already, you can enter a "Recipe" and it will forecast what sort of beer you might get.
    • You could then plug some different ingredients in to try to make adjustments - perhaps to get Very Potent or differently flavored beer.
  2. You can see the Vitamins, Glucose, Maltose, as well as flavors created purely by the recipe ingredients (given specified add times)
    • Then you can copy those figures to the Yeast Helper tab later so it will calculate the change caused by the yeast. (Initial - Final = Change caused by the Microbes sealed inside)


DO MORE WORK ON THIS TEHM--

tehm: [04m] we hoping Line 36 gets filled out?
Ashen: [03m] line 36 on the calculator page? that gets filled out from data on the "Yeasts" page.
tehm: [04m] you'd think there'd be a shared Yeasts Spreadsheet?
Ashen: [03m] last year i dealt with copying peoples stuff into the master spreadsheet. i haven't had a chance to this round yet.
Ashen: [02m] one shared spreadsheet for everybody doesn't work so well for multiple people wanting to use the calculator at the same time

tehm: [01m] also weird that Yeast 11 showed Vanilla for whoever filled the thing out cuz that wasn't even in my report
tehm: [00m] I didn't get anything about Herbal either
Ashen: [00m] ok so for beers there are two sets of flavors that can come from yeasts. one set only comes in when you use malt, the other set only comes in when you use wheat.
Ashen: [00m] vanilla is a wheat flavor.
Ashen: [00m] since you only used malt and honey, you'll only get malt flavors.
Ashen: [01m] on the yeast tables on the wiki, the first row is malt flavors and teh second row is wheat flavors. i... think. [double checking]
Ashen: [00m] yeah i think that's correct.

Ashen: [00m] some of the flavors come both from the ingredients and the yeasts eating those ingredients, and that's where some of the math comes in. if you use wheat, wheat itself contributes some bread and herbal flavor. if you use malt, malt itself contributes some grassy and nasty flavor. and then honey of course contributes honey flavor. on the calculator page, it tells you how much the ingredients themselves contribute to those flavors. so you have to subtract those values off what the report says to get the yeast's contributions to those flavors.


tehm: [10m] so... with Y-11, I want to make a beer! what should I do Ashen: [10m] ok, first lets get Y-11's known stats into the spreadsheet. i may as well do that on the master one. gimme a sec. Ashen: [08m] ok, i copied that in, along with my data [so far] for y-34 Ashen: [08m] so you can copy those to your spreadsheet Ashen: [07m] note: without maltose floor and vitamin floor known, there is a strong possibility of not getting the results the calculator tells you Ashen: [07m] however, once you copy that data over (or enter it yourself) on the yeasts page, go over to the calculator page and select Yeast-11 in A36 Ashen: [04m] once you've done that, you can experiment with ingredients on the calculator Ashen: [01m] you could enter something like 50LM at 1200. it says "bitter". so you could try adding some honey to counteract the bitter. 50H at 1200. now it says bitter caustic muddled. oops. too little glucose/maltose compared to cinnamon+nutmeg (this may be wrong because we don't know floors). so i reduce LM from 50 to 20. now it doesn't have any bad things anymore. it says i should get a plain Dry beer out of that. Ashen: [00m] that could still be wrong because floors are unknown.

xxxxxxx tehm: [06m] would there be a reason to fiddle with the timing? Ashen: [05m] yes Ashen: [05m] certain things are proportional to time remaining and other things are inversely proportional. Ashen: [05m] for example, you get more vitamins the closer to the end you add the ingredient (i.e., the less cooking time). so if you need lots of vitamins, say, that's a reason to add a bit of honey close to the end instead of close to the beginning. Ashen: [04m] (1200 being the beginning, 0 being the end, of the cooking phase) tehm: [03m] I'm getting Cloying pretty much persistently, what should I do to get rid of that? or do I not care Ashen: [02m] cloying will be a bad beer. cloying is glucose+maltose/2 > tannin + cinnamon + nutmeg + lactic acid. Ashen: [02m] https://atitd.wiki/tale9/Guides/Beer Ashen: [02m] [reference] Ashen: [01m] so to counteract that, you either need to reduce your ending glucose/maltose, or increase tannin/cinnamin/nutmeg. the later you can't do if the yeast you have just doesn't have much of those flavors. Ashen: [00m] you can look in the purple area of the calculator to see what's contributing to glucose and maltose and how much, and try adjusting those ingredients or timings to reduce how much glucose/maltose you put in Ashen: [26m] line 36 on the calculator


Solaris' Tests Test: 200 Honey @1150, 20 Raw Malt @50 -- Malt Flavors, Alc Ceiling
Test: 200 Honey @1150, 20 Raw Wheat @50 -- Wheat Flavors, Alc Ceiling
20 Honey @12, 30 Light Malt @12
-- Maltose Floor
50 Honey @12, 10 Light Malt @12
-- Vit Floor


Locations

 Tests made by players over the tellings suggest that the microbe population shifts as your kettle crosses coordinate lines. The degree of shift is dependent on the degree to which the coordinate is divisible by two. Thus if the coordinate you cross is divisible by 128, most of the upper microbes will change. On the other hand if the coordinate can only be divided by 8, or 4 or 2, the shift in order is likely to be small. This shift occurs very sharply within a small fraction of a coordinate. So avoid placing kettles on such a high power of two coordinate. On the other hand, if you are searching for new microbes, place four kettles on odd numbered coordinates around the point where two lines divisible by 128 cross. This will give you four sets of well shuffled microbes.